On this episode, Gary sits down with Terry Shaw, President and CEO of AdventHealth.

Terry and Gary discuss how Terry rose from summer intern to CEO over a 35 year career, what his top challenges and lessons have been as a CEO, and how his team is driving AdventHealth to evolve and innovate ahead of the marketplace.


Terry Shaw 0:00
All CEOs make the same three mistakes. And here’s what I think they are, number one, the facts are we don’t deal with HR issues soon enough. Number two, we allow the inertia of the organization to push back on our plan and we give up. Number three, we come to work and tend to focus on what we’re comfortable with as opposed to what we really ought to be doing.

Gary Bisbee 0:24
That was Terry Shaw, President and CEO Advent health and I’m Gary Bisbee. This is Fireside Chat. Terry was responding to the question during your first three years as CEO what observations have you made about being a CEO? Advent health as a multi hospital multi state health system and one of the 10 largest not for profit health systems in the US. Comparable in revenue to Commonwealth Edison or Bed Bath and Beyond. Both public utilities and retail have significant relevance to healthcare delivery, as we explore with Terry. This wide ranging conversation offers affordability of health care for patients and consumers, the influence on health care of its largest payers, federal and state governments, the Advent health growth strategy, and much more. Let’s pick up the conversation.

Well, welcome to the podcast. Terry.

Terry Shaw 1:13
Thank you very much, Gary.

Gary Bisbee 1:14
Good to be here in Orlando. I left washington dc three hours ago was 26 degrees.

Terry Shaw 1:20
Yes, a nice 70 outside today.

Gary Bisbee 1:24
I may not go back. I may just stay here. So Advent health is one of the 10 largest not for profit health systems in the country. Congratulations on that. In fact, I was wondering, when you started as a business intern over 30 years ago, do you have any recollection of what the size what the revenue would have been then?

Terry Shaw 1:45
When I started back in 85? I believe our combined net revenue was right around 350 million. So it’s, you know, lots of change and the growth has accelerated and we’ve been very very fortunate to participate in that growth.

Gary Bisbee 2:02
So when you became CFO in 2000…

Terry Shaw 2:05
We were we were about 3 billion. And we grew from 3 billion to about 9 billion by 2016. And then the last three years, we’ve grown from nine to 12 billion.

Gary Bisbee 2:18
Yeah, amazing, amazing growth. Well, would you describe Advent health for us? It’s always fun to hear how the CEO describes the health system.

Terry Shaw 2:28
Gary Advent health as a faith based consumer driven, clinical company. We pride ourselves and taking care of the whole person. And we’re doing our best to with our new brand. Our tagline is to help you feel whole. Two thirds of our revenues are in the state of Florida. A third of our revenues are outside the state of Florida. We have the opportunity to have long lasting relationships, which allows Advent health to be relevant in markets that we wouldn’t have without those partnerships. An example is Ascension health care is a partner of ours in the Chicago market. Common spirit is a partner in the greater Denver market, and Texas Health Resources as a partner in the Fort Worth market. And we’ve been blessed over the years to be in growing, stable markets. And we look forward to becoming a $20 billion organization over the next five years.

Gary Bisbee 3:28
So you’ve been CEO for three years, seems either longer or shorter, depending on your point of view

Terry Shaw 3:34
Actually seems like just yesterday.

Gary Bisbee 3:36
One of the things that I attribute to your leadership is the focus on the consumer. Maybe we’ll have a few questions about that later. But is that fair, I mean, is that something that’s really a driving force?

Terry Shaw 3:50
It is a huge driving force. Many of us many of us in the healthcare field have to call a neighbor – we phone a friend when we need something. And it got me thinking about all the people that don’t have a friend to phone. And then it got me thinking if nobody had to phone a friend, if the system does work like it was supposed to, there would be no lapses in care. There would be no question about who to call next to figure out what’s next in your care process. Now, how do we set that up in every market that we’re in for everybody in the market, regardless of how we get paid?

Gary Bisbee 4:24
So you went through a significant brand change about a year ago. And I’m wondering if part of that was just this issue about the consumer and recognition and so on?

Terry Shaw 4:35
It is we had legacy brands across 50 markets and nine states. And we decided we wanted to become a much different organization. So we rebranded everything to Advent health. Now it took us a while to get our community boards and our team together and aligned around the process. We rolled that out in January of 19. And I will tell you, Gary, it’s gone very well.

Gary Bisbee 4:58
Excellent. Physicians bought into that?

Terry Shaw 5:01
They have. And it’s nice for me to see especially social media sites, where we have our physicians leaning into the brand, advertising their services as a part of their brand and being proud of being something that’s just a little bit bigger than themselves.

Gary Bisbee 5:19
So in a case of, let’s say, Florida hospital, which was huge, probably the most significant brand in Florida or maybe in the region. How did how did that work relative to Advent health?

Terry Shaw 5:31
That brand transition in Central Florida has probably gone the easiest of any brand that we’ve had. From a transition perspective. The Florida hospital name in this market was a very respected name. We spent a lot of time in the market making sure people knew that we were moving to Advent health, and then we spent a significant amount of time making sure they understand Advent health in the old organization is still encompassing those sites. But we’re a new organization when it comes to how we’re thinking about you as the person needing care.

Gary Bisbee 6:05
So how do you describe the culture at Advent health and did the brand kind of figure in maybe an evolving culture over time?

Terry Shaw 6:12
I’d say our culture, we’re a faith based organization, right? So first of all, we try to start and end with people are child of God. And our culture is as we try to take care of you as a human being: mind, body, spirit. Now, that entered our thinking as to how it is we were then going to really develop that brand and the brand content to the market. For example, we were really good at providing spiritual care for people in the inpatient setting. We were doing not so good in the outpatient setting. And we’ve totally changed that in the last year as a part of our brand. We ask everybody who walks in the door. Do you have a source of joy in your life? Do you have someone at home that loves you? And do you have a sense of peace today? And that has started a whole new relationship with a patient and a physician. And it allows the physician to really get at some of the root causes of what’s going on in somebody’s life. We’re all much bigger than our diagnosis. We’re all a sum of our thoughts, feelings and beliefs. And getting to those thoughts, feelings and beliefs for every person is really important. We established an E-Care Center for spiritual care. And we’ve had thousands of referrals across nine states for follow up care for people. And it’s just been an amazing year as it relates to changing how we interface with people in the market.

Gary Bisbee 7:39
So good we turn to you, Terry as the CEO for a moment. When you started here as a business intern, did you have aspirations of becoming a CEO?

Terry Shaw 7:50
No. It’s a matter of fact, I used to live in a dorm and the summertime behind the old Florida hospital over here on Lake Estelle. At night when we talk about what we wanted to be in the future, I always used to say if I could just make it to the vice president level, I would just be so happy with my life. And no, no, I couldn’t have dreamed this at all. Never, never would have thought. But you know, it happened and it’s really kind of cool.

Gary Bisbee 8:18
At what point did you think? I mean, you were VP then CFO and then became Chief Operating Officer, right? At what point did it start kind of dawning on you, you know, I have something to contribute here as a CEO?

Terry Shaw 8:34
Three years before Don Jernigan, retired. I’d been Chief Operating Officer for a couple of years and after doing that job for a couple of years, one day I was in Don’s office and we were talking and he started asking me a series of questions about kind of like, “Hey, bud, where are you headed in life?” And it made me really go home and think, what’s next? What do you want to do? And right there, I said, you know, if I had a chance to actually be the CEO or be a CEO in an organization, I think I would really enjoy that. And that’s where it started,

Gary Bisbee 9:12
You know, as you’re in a CFO forum, for a number of years, and of course, at the Academy, we have the grand opportunity to see a number of you all in various professional roles. But at any rate, you always looked like you were going to be a CEO to us. So that was not a surprise at all. After being the CEO for three years, is there any observation you’ve made about being a CEO that might be different than what you’d thought going into it?

Terry Shaw 9:41
You know, there is I think, my guess is all CEOs make the same three mistakes. And here’s what I think they are, number one, the facts are we don’t deal with HR issues soon enough. Number two, we allow the inertia of the organization to push back on our plan, and we give up. Number three, we come to work and tend to focus on what we’re comfortable with as opposed to what we really ought to be doing. And I remember about eight months in me sitting down and thinking about what are the three things that are really I need to go home and think about, and those were the three things. Now, to his credit, my coach helped me think through those three things. And my coach was right. When I went home and really thought about it, I was putting off some HR things I had to get done. I was working on things that somebody else ought to be doing and wasn’t spending my time what I really ought to be doing. And number three, I was on the verge of really backing away from some huge change. Branding was one, the consumer focus was another because of the inertia of the organization. And I doubled down on my efforts and said no we can’t do that. So I don’t know what everybody else’s experiences are, but those were three things that I think if somebody would have said going into the job, here’s the three mistakes you’re gonna make. I said, “Nah I won’t make them,” but I’m pretty clear I did. And my guess is as most CEOs do.

Gary Bisbee 11:12
Right, I think that’s right. Well, what gives you the most satisfaction then, about being a CEO ?

Terry Shaw 11:18
I love working with my team. I’ve always had the belief that you’re only as good as the people in your downline. In fact, one of my sayings is and I say this to my summer interns all the time, “One day and you’re my job. If you wake up and you’re the sharpest person in your downline, you’re in big trouble.” And I get to work with some amazingly talented and good people and the favorite part of my job is having the team come together and accomplish something big together.

Gary Bisbee 11:48
Leadership Development is important to you. How much time do you spend on that do you think? How much personal time?

Terry Shaw 11:54
A lot. Now, three years ago, when I became CEO about a month after that we started the Advent health Leadership Institute. We’ve had a class and a half go through, we’ve had a new class starting next year, brand new space brand new thought process. We’re now leaning into a clinician track. It’s my intent that from the CEO down to the manager on the unit that’s about 6000 people in our company. We take an extremely intentional role in how we do leadership training in our company. Our leadership model is lead, self lead, others lead results. And it’s amazing how little time we think about leadership training for the people who are actually working with the people who take care of our patients. So I’m very passionate about it. We’re spending a lot of time and energy on it. I personally go to the cohorts of our middle management and senior leadership training sessions, and I’m personally leading with our lead Leadership Institute in our HR team to determine the cross function that we need to embed into our system so that our top 6000 leaders raised their capacity to do a better job leading.

Gary Bisbee 13:12
So, from the time you were appointed CFO in 2000. What’s the hardest decision, you’ve had to make?

Terry Shaw 13:20
Other than branding? So I will tell you, branding was really hard. You walk away from some legacy brands, and I had to really think hard about that. So we thought about it two years before we did it, and I’d do it again. But it was one of the hardest decisions. Probably the second hardest decision that we’ve ever made, is.. and it took a change in our thought process, which was back in the 2000s. We had to come to the conclusion that we were not going to succeed in some markets, without partners in a long term basis. And we had to really step back and analyze our DNA and say “it’s easy to run things yourself, can we change our DNA and actually be a good partner?” And I tell you those two were pivot points in our company. Because the partnerships that we have today are very effective, very viable, and have allowed our ministries to survive in a way that they probably wouldn’t without it.

Gary Bisbee 14:24
Well, one form of partnership is with the JoA’s and you have a reputation of being very good. A very good partner in those a lot of people aren’t. Can’t get it right. What’s the secret to the success of a successful partner and a JoA?

Terry Shaw 14:46
This is really simple and I tell people this all the time. If you can manage something on your own and you don’t really need help, you should. Because it takes half the time to manage something on your own than it does with a partner. If you’re going to have a partnership, if Don’t dedicate time to the partnership and to the people on the other side of the table. The partnerships not gonna work. It’s like a marriage, you’ve got to dedicate time. And I tell you all of our partnerships are a little different. But the one universal that is the is the same across them all, is that if you don’t want to spend the time helping manage the partnership, you’re wasting your time.

Gary Bisbee 15:22
So let’s talk for a moment about the environment. One obvious thing for all of us is government pay… Medicare. One imagines in Florida, a lot of influx I know living in Connecticut, seems like everybody who retires comes down to Florida. But how do you think about the growing Medicare population in particular the cost profile given commercial pay?

Terry Shaw 15:49
It’s interesting, I believe in the next 10 years. In Florida, the payer mix is going to change 10% away from commercial into Medicare in some fashion. Mainly MA, I believe. Our ability to take on MA at scale and make that make a 6% return is nowhere close to what it ought to be. One of the six things consumers want… another one is risk. We have got to be as good at running MA risk as anybody in the country. And I don’t need to make 12 or 15 on it like a lot of for profits do. I’m happy to make six and use the delta to run food programs, transportation programs, etc. But you can’t do it and lose six cents on the dollar. It has to make money. And we are spending an enormous amount of time and energy developing the inside expertise to get that done because I think it’s going to be critical to our success in the future.

Gary Bisbee 16:50
So, managing risk do you do you have to go outside to get people to understand and develop your own?

Terry Shaw 16:57
We’re gonna do a little bit of both. One thing I’m clear I need that I don’t have as a Chief Risk Officer. And I’m looking for that person right now. And I don’t think that person’s inside. And we have enormous talent inside. And I think with the right leadership, we can develop the right mechanisms to drive the risk profile that we want across MA lives. But I’m going to need some outside help. I’ll tell you, I’m looking for two other positions you didn’t ask but…I’m looking at changing our org chart three ways. So I need a Chief Digital Officer, Chief Consumer officer, Chief Brand and Marketing officer, Chief Risk Officer. Four things that were changing the chart with here in the next six months.

Gary Bisbee 17:41
Probably none of them were envisioned five or 10 years ago,

Terry Shaw 17:44
None of them, but most progressive companies that have a consumer focus, have a chief consumer officer, that that’s all they show up and make sure everything that you do fits in that space the way it ought to. We need that. Chief Digital Officer, everything’s going digital, we need the same. Chief risk officer, I’ve just explained. So, we are we are changing with the industry. And I’m trying to learn from some of the big organizations that spend all their life doing consumer facing work, and trying to embed in our company, that kind of thinking.

Gary Bisbee 18:24
So Terry, how do you think about I’ll just use this term “re-engineering care.” I mean, that is your core product delivery here. And it seems given digital, given preferences of consumers and so on has to change, but it also has to change in terms of that 6%. How do you think about reengineering care?

Terry Shaw 18:44
Let me just give you an example. We’re looking at primary care of the future. And we actually have gone from one way of looking at primary care to five ways of looking at primary care. So you want to be a primary care physician in our company. We have five tracks for you. You want to have an office with 2500 patients and you’re open four and a half days a week: great. You want to be a retail primary care office where I schedule you, and it’s a little transient, but it functions like a primary care office: great. You want to be in an office that manages MA risk with 500 to 700 lives, and we put you in a node with four other doctors and a pharmacist and a social worker: great. You want to work in our urgent care centers that are open some of them 24 hours a day, most of them 12 to 15: that’s fantastic. You want to be a hospitalist: fantastic. So we are looking at how we change our care based upon what the consumer wants and needs. We’re also re-envisioning primary care for you. So here’s the deal. You don’t, as a consumer, you don’t want to know that I’ve picked one of the five you just want your care. So obviously one of the things we want to do for you is have it be done electronically for you. We’re trying to embed into our systems, the ability for you to schedule yourself and actually make it work. It sounds easy. The technology is easy. What’s not easy, is getting 2000 doctors to open their schedules twice a day or three times a day for you to put your name on the list. So, it’s an operational thought process and change everywhere I look. But the beauty of it is once the flywheel starts to turn and it catches on, it actually goes pretty good. And the consumer really likes it.

Gary Bisbee 20:34
Much needed. And I like the way you outline that. So thinking about government pay and the average across our largest hundred health systems is roughly 55% of their revenue now comes from governments. What is Advent health? Probably a little bit less?

Terry Shaw 20:52
Yeah, in Florida especially I have hospitals in Florida that are 90%, Medicare, Medicaid and self pay. So it’s an interesting debate when you really think about it. I listened to people talk on debates and other things. And they keep talking about Medicare for all… truth is Gary. We have community hospitals whose cost base are running between 105% and 107% of Medicare. And then I have my downtown campus that does really high end intensive work, brain surgery, transplants, tertiary quaternary quaternary care, it’s running 142% of Medicare 150% of Medicare depending upon the service. As a company, you roll us all up. Our costs are running right at 124% of Medicare. I personally don’t know how to run a health system on 100% of Medicare. I appreciate the thought. And maybe there’s a lot of my colleagues that have got this figured out. But when I when I hear Medicare for all if they’re talking about a coverage mechanism. Okay. If you’re talking about a payment mechanism, you need to rethink what it is you’re going to get out of the health care product and in North America compared to what it is today.

Gary Bisbee 22:11
Thinking about that. You could compare our large health systems to public health utility 60% of your revenues, I mean, sure, 70%. How’s that going to change? Do you think the way that decision makers in Washington look at our health systems?

Terry Shaw 22:31
I think at some juncture, they’re going to reach out and have the same thought everybody else has got, which is if Medicare and Medicaid, and once I cover the people with no coverage into some type of payment is 75 or 80% of the care in this country. What’s wrong with just doing what everybody else has done? Which is make it a government run process? And I will tell you, first of all, let me say this, I’m in favor of coverage for everybody in this country, right? What i’m not in favor of is Medicare for everybody. When we’ve got 200 million people give or take the statistics that have health insurance through their own employer. There’s zero reason to tinker with that. What we need to be tinkering with are the people in our population that either can’t afford it or make too much money and they don’t get it through their employer, but they make too much money to get it through Medicaid? We need to fill in the gaps of care for people to get the right care. So I’m not a fan of universal coverage, if that’s what you’re asking, but I am a fan. I don’t know. I’m a fan of universal coverage. I’m not a fan of a single payer system.

Gary Bisbee 23:41
Correct. I think you have that right. The consumer orientation issue if we could come back to that. So do you like the word consumer or customer better, or does it make any difference?

Terry Shaw 23:54
So it’s interesting you say that at our last planning retreat with our board, I had a very thoughtful board members say you sure you want to call this consumer for the next 10 years? Is this person a consumer or a customer? Or are they something else that you could go think through what you’re going to say? And I haven’t landed the plane on that. But I do know, I have a very thoughtful person on my board who does not like me calling people consumers. I’m okay with the term personally, but, if there’s a better way of representing that to people who are needing health care services, I’m all ears and I’ve got people working on that right now.

Gary Bisbee 24:34
It seems historically our customer was the physician and now we’re evolving beyond that.

Terry Shaw 24:42
Into the community that you serve. Right? So is it you know, is it the community is it the customer is it the consumer? I I’m pretty flexible. What I don’t want it to be a pejorative, but I do want it to represent the fact that I view my job In a market is to care for and reach into the community and help the community find a better way to access health care.

Gary Bisbee 25:09
So we talked a bit about the physician a minute ago, and you were indicating a number of different models to accommodate their interests. In this particular case, I think physicians sometimes feel that they’re being badgered or forced into something. I mean, how do you handle the fact that we just must be more responsive to our customers slash consumer?

Terry Shaw 25:35
We thought a lot about that too. And what I’m finding is, is that we will have delivery sites that are called a tier one network, where office hours are open, late into the evening. They have coverage 24 seven, they’re open on the weekends, so that people really have access to care. And then you’re going to have tier two players that want to work for and a half days a week and really don’t want to move into the new mold. And over time, I think we will be signing up more tier one providers and trying to rely less and less on tier two providers.

Gary Bisbee 26:13
Yep. So affordability is a contemporary issue of some consequences, the former CFO, nobody knows more about the cost part of that than you do. How do you think that is going to evolve over the next five or 10 years?

Terry Shaw 26:30
I think I personally believe that somebody will wise up and go, “you have to tell the consumer what your top 750 outpatient shoppable procedures are not the price file.” When they come to your facility, forget what’s on the price file, what’s the price for the consumer, or the customer or the community member, whatever you want to call that person. Our price files mean nothing, everybody knows it. It’s a function of Medicare outlier payments, that all needs to change. We all need to rebase our price files, if we get the federal government to work with this on outlier payments, it could happen in a year. But we have got to get this boiled down to and then on the inpatient side, truthfully, people are starting to want to know, within the within a band of relativity, I recognize it’s not perfect when you come into the inpatient side for surgery or etc. What’s it going to cost? And we’re going to have to do a better job for the common things that somebody needs in care of having plus or minus around a cost estimate, and we stick to it. And I think it’s going to be an actuarial science process. And we’re going to have to take the risk, people are tired of thinking it’s gonna cost $3,000 and when it was all said and done, it was really 10 and we have got to be at the forefront of that change or somebody is going to change it for us. So our goal in Central Florida next year is to have our top 600 shoppable items on the website, you know what you’re going to pay. And it’s not a mystery.

Gary Bisbee 28:10
Terrific. That’s a leadership role, Terry. Growth strategy, how do you think about scale here at Advent health?

Terry Shaw 28:18
We love scale, but we only love scale that can add to the base. So, in the last three years, I’ll just take the last three years, we’ve grown from 9 billion to 12 billion, but our EBITDA margin has stayed the same every year. If you’re not careful when you’re growing, you can deflate the ability to produce enough capital to keep yourself current. So I’d love to grow from 12 to 20. But I want my EBITDA margin at 20 to be the same as it is at 12. If you let your EBITDA margin be cut in half, as you grow from 12 to 25? You are twice as big and you still have the same amount of capital spent. It just doesn’t work. So we’re very thoughtful about growth. Number two, I will tell you, we kind of like… I grew up in Texas. And this is a real analogy for me. My grandfathers were farmers, they didn’t want all the land, they just want all the land next to them. So we we tend to run in concentric circles out. And we try to take our influence from where we are out further and further. And that’s what we’re doing in every one of our markets.

Gary Bisbee 29:23
So where does scale actually matter? If I could ask that question.

Terry Shaw 29:28
Scale matters in a stepwise progression in overhead costs, and I’ll tell you the truth. I was at the company at 3,000,00, 3 billion and watched it grow to six, and then about 5 billion between five and seven. That was pure…we didn’t have to add overhead to make that work. And then from about seven to nine for every dollar of overhead, I had to add $1 at costs. And from about nine, for us to about 11, we got another benefit of not having to add overhead as we’ve grown now we’re at 12. And I’ve been able to add the Leadership Institute and a design center and still keep my overhead cost as a percentage of revenue the same as it’s been for the past five years. So overhead does ameliorate itself on a stepwise basis. If you’re careful as you grow. We haven’t chosen to save that money. I want to be clear about this. Our overhead as a percentage of revenue stayed the same. What it has allowed us to do is things that we never dreamed of doing when we were a $3 billion company.

Gary Bisbee 30:32
So being a CEO today is seems like requires different skills than being a CEO even five years ago, certainly 10 years ago. What advice do you give young people coming in and say, Terry, gee, I’d love to be a CEO someday. What should I do? How should I learn?

Terry Shaw 30:51
I give him I give you the same advice I give my own team. First one is be the person that everybody wants to be on their team. Because if that person’s on your team, your chances of success are higher than without them. Be that person. And I don’t care what job you have, just develop a reputation for being the person that gets things done. Number two, I’d tell you to read about other companies. And I’d tell you to read about other people, and not just their successes, but read about their failures. A smart person can learn from their own mistakes, a really smart person learns from the mistakes of others. And if you can allow yourself to learn from the mistake of others, you’ll put yourself way ahead. You don’t have to repeat things other people have done. That’s the second piece of advice. Third piece of advice is I tell you to be flexible. I get asked this question all the time. Well, it all worked out. Good for you. Where did you start? I’m like, Yeah, I I started in the basement as an analyst…and my point to you is it doesn’t matter where you start. What matters is what can you, what can you bring to the table? What can you learn? And what can you help the organization work through, regardless of what chair you’re in. And if you take a broad view of your role as opposed to a narrow view of your role, other people will take a broad view of your role as well.

Gary Bisbee 32:23
Terrific advice for any position. Let’s wrap up with a governance question. I know you’re rethinking the board here at Advent health a bit. Can you share with us how you’re thinking about change?

Terry Shaw 32:38
I am, you know, first of all, we have a fantastic board. They’re very dedicated to the success of Advent health, but it’s grown over the past 40 years, as we’ve added to our company, and believe it or not our boards about 67 people. So, it’s really hard to have a conversation at the board. And over the past couple of years, we’ve thought about what that really means. And we’ve come to the conclusion that we need a board that’s no bigger than about 23. And we’re in a thoughtful process right now of determining what part of our church ministry is going to serve on that board. And then how many industry experts we have served on the board, it looks like about this, it looks like I’ll take a spot on the board. We’ll have 14 professional church members on the board, and then we’ll have six to eight industry professionals serve on the board and about 23 people and we’ll, we’ll take it from there. But I think on a go forward basis, a more nimble board for us will be more effective. And yet we’ll still have the connection to our church, which we need to have as a ministry. So that’s where we’re headed. Now, a lot of people would tell you, if your boards not between eight and 12, it doesn’t work and like that’s interesting. I got 67. So how about we take this about we take this just a little bit at a time. And it’s a shock going from 67 to 23 to 25. And you know, one of these days when somebody else is running this place, they can try to do something else with it. That’s where we’re at right now.

Gary Bisbee 34:19
That’s a great place to land. Terry, thanks so much on the interview.

Thank you.

Very much enjoyed.

Appreciate it. Gary, take care.

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