Mike Mussallem 0:03
But what it really means for our team and our patients is there’s a real urgency to what we do. And even though many of our innovations, it takes years for us to nurture them and to gather the clinical evidence, put them in place, we need to be action figures and really act now because there is an urgency that’s associated with this, and many times our patients simply can’t wait.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 0:28
That was Mike Mussallam, chairman and CEO Edwards Lifesciences, describing the importance to Edwards’ employees and patients of the last three words of the Edwards credo and the title of this episode, “Life is Now.” I’m Gary Bisbee and this is Fireside Chat. After 20 years at Baxter, Mike became the CEO of Edwards Lifesciences in 2000, when it spun out of Baxter. Edwards holds the leading global position in virtually every one of its products. Edwards’ business is structural heart disease and critical care products, which makes it fully understandable when Mike describes how patients come first in the Edwards culture. Mike and Edwards both have fascinating backgrounds and successes. We covered them in depth during our conversation. Mike discussed the effect on Edwards from the COVID crisis, not surprisingly, in parallel that reported by large health systems, lost business during the surges resulting in potential harm to patients, supply chain shortages, and rapid transition to remote working except for the Edwards cleanroom staff. In response to the question about characteristics of a leader in a crisis, Mike was elegant in his simplicity. Let’s listen.
Mike Mussallem 1:40
Just finding your voice is so important. People want to turn to their leaders and have somebody there that’s trustworthy and will be a source of truth. And having the courage to stand up and deliver that is so important. Even when you know that you may not have all the answers, but simply being a good listener, I’ve found it’s so important to be empathetic.
Gary Bisbee 2:05
I’m delighted to welcome Mike Mussallem to the microphone. Well good morning, Mike, and welcome.
Mike Mussallem 2:15
Hey, thanks, Gary. My pleasure. Nice to be here.
Gary Bisbee 2:18
Well, it’s good to have you at the microphone. Why don’t we get right into this? We like to talk to our CEO guests about their early years to see if we can figure out why they became a CEO and what was the driving force. In your case, you grew up in Indiana. What was your background like, what was your life like growing up in Indiana?
Mike Mussallem 2:40
Probably would have been the farthest from my mind and maybe those around me that I would ever be a CEO to be honest with you. So I know people think of Indiana, they think of a rural state. But I grew up in Gary, Indiana, which was pretty industrial part. That’s a steel mill capital of the US to some extent, along with Pittsburgh. I was very fortunate. I grew up in a very loving household whose mother and father’s sole purpose in life was to give their kids a better life. I was one of three boys. And we were a tight family unit. We all always worked, that was all part of it. And one of the things that left a big impression on my life, was my older brother was born with Down’s syndrome. And so that really had a big impact on our family. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been around Down’s syndrome people, but the good news is they’re so filled with love, independence, and innocence, and so forth, but slow learners. And my mother really had to step out of a career to devote her life to really helping my brother George and he did amazing where he learned to read and write and handle money. And I like to tell people that those accomplishments for him probably greatly overshadow anything that I ever accomplished in my life and I was humbled by that. And coincidentally, my wife Linda also had a brother with Down syndrome. And that’s the centerpiece of our philanthropy today. We spend a lot of time thinking about those guys and how to give them a better life.
Gary Bisbee 4:05
Mike, do you think you ended up in healthcare because of that?
Mike Mussallem 4:09
I wouldn’t be surprised if subliminally if it was in there. It certainly makes you values-driven. And you become very respectful of those around you and everybody is not necessarily born with the same God-given abilities. It’s a privilege actually, to be able to have a great brain or physical health and all that and I think you become a little bit more aware of all that when you go through it. But I had a great childhood, like I said, always working. When I had early jobs, I was a paperboy. I know nobody even knows what the heck that is anymore. But,…
Gary Bisbee 4:44
I did that too, Mike, so…
Mike Mussallem 4:47
Well, you know then, Gary. You learn responsibility early. I needed to deliver 72 papers every day just the way they wanted them delivered and that was important to those 72 people. And I coerced my brothers to help me and all that stuff, and you took real responsibility, and you also had to collect, in my day, 35 cents from 72 people every two weeks, which was pretty interesting. And you ran into everything from those that are trying to avoid you to those with dogs to those that just wanting to hug you and hang around, hang around for a while. It was a good, a good cultivating experience for business, I think early on.
Gary Bisbee 5:23
I’m chuckling only because I agree 100% that collections every other week was really where I learned finance and people and the whole thing.
Mike Mussallem 5:33
Don’t you think, right? Yeah, it leaves a mark, that’s for sure. Later on, I was able to do other things. If you were in my town, the highest paying job was to be able to get a job at the steel mills. So I started going to work there summers as soon as I turned 18 to help pay for my college education. And I also got quite an education from working in the steel mills. I now know a little bit why steel didn’t necessarily make it. There was a lot of tension between labor and management and labor was kind of into let’s try and make this as painless as possible and do as little work as possible. And management wasn’t particularly good listeners. And it was a pretty caustic environment. Also, good experiences for me as I was developing my own sense of what relationship might be like between people that were on the line and, and folks that were in some kind of management position.
Gary Bisbee 6:28
And then off to Rose-Hulman, a good Indiana school. Why did you choose Rose-Hulman, Mike?
Mike Mussallem 6:33
For me, that was kind of a dream come true. I didn’t have high aspirations at that time. The idea of becoming an engineer probably started settling in in high school. I was pretty good at math and I liked chemistry and had a high school counselor that talked to me about it. And so I basically looked around to see how could I get together some kind of a financial package between minor scholarships and loans and whatever I could scrape up and actually, Rose, which was highly regarded at the time, not as highly regarded as it is today, I was able to get an offer to go there. And I was thrilled to be able to do that. But so I immediately signed up for chemical engineering, not knowing a heck of a lot about what chemical engineers did. I mean, I was a very deep kid at the time thinking about, boy, I heard they get paid a lot of money when they get out of school. That was about the level of my horizon in those days.
Gary Bisbee 7:24
Rose-Hulman today is a prototypical STEM program, right, which they probably didn’t use those terms in those days. But that was a great background, wasn’t it?
Mike Mussallem 7:35
Yeah, it really was. One of the things that you learn in engineering is really problem-solving. And so it was a great environment from that perspective. It was also a small class size, so for a kid like me, that was, I wasn’t particularly mature at the time. I was glad to get away from my parents and start to have all the freedom associated with living on my own and all that, it was helpful for me to have a little bit of a personalized attention as well. And I felt like I really got a great education. It wasn’t straight up, I had to find my way. And all of a sudden, at some point, I figured out, hey, it would be really good to try and learn something. That’s the reason I’m here. So it was a great experience. And today, I’m actually on the board of trustees at Rose and I try and give back. It’s a fantastic school. And I’m a big believer in STEM as being a way, even in our own community here in California, to secure a bright future. I think if you can have strong STEM students that are filling the world, you have a better chance to have a richer economy and a better life for everybody in the community.
Gary Bisbee 8:37
I was going to ask about going on the board of the school you graduated from. In some ways, that must make you proud and other ways must be almost a little strange, isn’t it or not?
Mike Mussallem 8:49
It is kind of strange. You know, it’s good for me because it’s a view into a world that I wasn’t really very familiar with. What’s it like to try and really run a great university? What’s, you know, all aspects whether they’re from your recruitment and handling of faculty to how you attract the bright students and how to get a great, great culture, and how do you make sure that they all end up with jobs and, and all everything that goes along with it. And so really valuable to me. But yeah, kind of strange. I mean, I would have never imagined that I would be in that kind of a leadership position when I was going to school. I was just living off the land at that time.
Gary Bisbee 9:26
You and most of the rest of us, Mike, so well done there. Post Rose, what was your interest?
Mike Mussallem 9:32
So, you know, I didn’t know what chemical engineers did until it was graduation time and started to see what job offers looked like. And I was fortunate, but all the job offers were either in chemical plants or oil refinery. And I guess, in hindsight, I was like, well, ok, I was really glad to get those nice offers, but that was the extent of it. So I ended up going to work for Union Carbide and it was in a new kind of facility that was making Prestone Antifreeze. And so this was all about trying to do that at the highest level. So interesting enough, that was my job. And we started a facility. My first job was a production supervisor. You could imagine trying to build thousands of bottles per day. And there were about, I don’t know, 30 or 40, mostly women on the line and they were my mother’s age. And I was a young supervisor, I used to think that you told people what to do. And you find out in about a minute that you don’t really tell people what to do when you’re the boss. You’re asking if they would like to have a third goal. So great experience for me. But I moved into engineering and plant engineering. And then we started up another plant, which was a great experience. But as I looked around, it wasn’t particularly rewarding. It was challenging, but I wasn’t really growing. I started going to school in the evenings for a business degree just to try and stimulate myself and I got exposed to people that were working in medical technology and healthcare. And that really sounded inspiring to me compared to what I was doing. We’d tell jokes in the old days, I used to save a few engine blocks. Now you could actually be involved in trying to save a few lives. So that really got my interest. So by five years out of school, I applied for a job at Baxter and that became my entree into healthcare. That was 1979, so 40 plus years ago now.
Gary Bisbee 11:24
Well, you moved through Baxter and then the spin-off of Edwards. Share with us what you were doing at Baxter, why that sounded attractive to you, Mike?
Mike Mussallem 11:35
Sure. I was at Baxter for 20 years. It was a great experience for me. I came in as an engineer and ultimately got more and more responsibility. It was kind of a meritocracy, it was kind of a place if you got something done, they gave me more to do. And I had a chance to grow a lot. Because I was willing to take jobs that weren’t the most attractive or the most exciting, I do it often a lot, a guy with, like me, a younger person that didn’t have much experience, take a job that was pretty big. Because let’s say, the particular product line or the business was kind of screwed up and it couldn’t make it any worse, and so it gave me an opportunity to grow pretty fast. And I had a chance to try and get my own teams together and to go after ambitious goals and I just learned a lot. So it was a lot of great formative years. I was around a lot of quality people. And actually, that’s when I first became affiliated with Edwards, because Baxter bought American Hospital Supply and this cardiovascular business existed inside American. And I was part of the trade. And so late 80s, early 90s, I got exposed to this business for the first time and had a chance to go into it, first making oxygenators used during open-heart surgery. And I kind of fell in love with the cardiovascular business at that time. It was personal to me. I had been involved in other things where you make millions of this or that and it’s less personal. But in the cardiovascular arena, there were real patients that were involved and you get a lot of feedback and you knew whether you did a great job or not so great. And so that was really appealing to me. And so later on when Baxter thought, hey, maybe this is a good idea to spin off Edwards Lifesciences, I raised my hand and that’s how I evolved to where I am today.
Gary Bisbee 13:25
Well, that was a terrific move and there’s a question about it, and you can share more about Edwards, we’ll ask you those questions, but do you view yourself as an entrepreneur or an operator? Because you’re kind of a foot in each camp when you take over a company like Edwards?
Mike Mussallem 13:42
Thanks, Gary, it’s a good question. That’s an interesting choice. I probably grew up as an operator, kind of a line guy, had to deliver, make it happen, no BS, all that kind of stuff. But over time, what I became observant of is the companies that distinguish themselves and people that distinguish themselves, they were real innovators, they charted a new path. And I became a student of that and really studied it deeply, watched why do small companies seem to innovate and big ones don’t? What’s going on in Silicon Valley? What, you know, how does this all work? How do you get risk-reward ratios lined up correctly? And so I think I evolved into more of an entrepreneur over time. I probably still am a foot in each camp if you would ask those around me.
Gary Bisbee 14:29
Well, let’s move to Edwards. For those of us that may not be as familiar with it could you please describe Edwards today, Mike?
Mike Mussallem 14:37
Sure. We’re very fortunate. We’re a very global company. We’re a leader in what we call patient-focused innovations in a couple of fields – structural heart disease and critical care monitoring. The company has a spirit really a passion for patients. And so we’re dedicated to try to create better lives for the patients that were engaging. And almost everything we do is with a collaboration and partnership, either with clinicians or all of the constituencies that we come in close encounters with around the world. I could go a little bit deeper. I mean, we’re, at this point, we’re about 15,000 employees and that’s really the centerpiece of our company. I couldn’t be more proud of them. We’re pretty much the leader in everything that we do, I want to say 97/98% of what we sell are in the number one global position around the world. We manufacture in seven different geographies around the world. We have a strong technical group, we probably have a couple thousand engineers, just to give you a high-level sense for it. But one of our glues is our culture.
Gary Bisbee 15:45
Go a little bit deeper in each one of those for us. So how would you describe critical care, what are the products, who do you sell them too, and so on.
Mike Mussallem 15:55
So in critical care, I don’t know if people are familiar with the term hemodynamic monitoring, but you almost think of what is the performance of the heart. And this is at a very granular level, like how much blood can it deliver with the pressures in the chamber, etc. And so we’re really expert in measuring that very precisely, being able to trend it, and now, in today’s world, even predict it. Normally it doesn’t matter for those of us that are healthy, but if you’re going through a very big surgery, or if you’re in an ICU, to know precisely what’s going on with the heart is very valuable and helps guide decision making. So that’s what critical care does. And we’re a global leader in that field. That’s kind of evolved over time to what we call smart recovery because it’s all about recovery. And today, we’re even employing artificial intelligence on some really great hardware platforms as well to help clinicians make good decisions. Matter of fact, one of our first entrees is actually being able to predict some bad events like low blood pressure before they happen. And I would say an anesthesiologist might think, “Oh, I can sniff that out,” but I think we’re able to really deliver some value there. Now when you switch to a structural heart disease, I think everybody knows about heart disease and heart failure, they normally think of coronary artery disease of your arteries getting blocked or maybe some rhythm disorders. But this is actually the structures of the heart. And there’s a number of things that impact the structures of the heart. Sometimes it can be driven by an infection, sometimes it’s just damage or old age, but we’re expert in that field. Heart valves are probably the single biggest product category, if you will, in that, but you can always just think of all kinds of holes in the hearts and other sort of structural issues with the heart itself. Traditionally only treatable through open-heart surgery, but today, other options.
Gary Bisbee 17:48
So I was reading your credo and was impressed that the tagline is “Life is Now.” How did you come up with that, Mike?
Mike Mussallem 17:58
It’s a good question, and actually, it closes with “Helping patients is our life’s work and life is now.” “Life is Now” might have come from a John Mellencamp song that I was intrigued by in 1999, where he said, “My life is now.” But, but what it really means for our team and our patients is there’s a real urgency to what we do. And even though many of our innovations, it takes years for us to nurture them and to gather the clinical evidence to put them in place. We need to be action figures and really act now because there is an urgency that’s associated with this. And many times our patients simply can’t wait. So this idea that life is now, and live in the present, and move fast, I think it’s aligned with how we feel it’s so important with the culture, especially as it relates to our patients.
Gary Bisbee 18:47
So in terms of critical care, the hemodynamic monitoring, do you partner with health systems in that area?
Mike Mussallem 18:54
Yeah, we do, probably most directly with the clinicians themselves. Those are the people that we directly serve. But of course, the actual purchases are generally coming from the hospital. So we’re working with the health systems on all of that, but we’re doing a lot of training, we’re a lot of hands-on whether it’s critical care or structural heart. And we have a good deal of people, I mean, literally thousands in the company that go to work hospitals every day to try and make sure that that procedure goes perfectly. And so they’re pretty hands-on.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 19:28
Just to wrap up the description of Edwards, what’s your growth strategy, Mike? How do you see yourself growing over the next several years?
Mike Mussallem 19:36
We try and be driven by doing the right thing for patients and knowing that if we’re doing that, the business kind of takes care of itself. We have what we call our patient-focused innovation strategy. And since we’ve been deploying that, and it’s been more than 10 years, we’ve grown double digits on the top line and even faster otherwise. So we have a very healthy company. We’re between $4 or 5 billion worth of sales, our valuation is over $50 billion. So we have a bright future in front of us and it’s mostly because we believe, and those on the outside believe that we’re going to continue to innovate and grow and really change the way that medicines practiced.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 20:17
Mike, credit to you because you were the first CEO for Edwards after the spin-off and you’ve just done a tremendous job. Let’s move to COVID, which has affected all of us, of course. And I’m just wondering, in terms of some of the heart patients, were they in this category of, “quote/unquote,” elective surgery patients? So was there a hit to heart surgeries during that time?
Mike Mussallem 20:43
Yeah, it was a really tough year for a structural heart patient or a critically ill patient. When you think about those folks that are most vulnerable to COVID, they’re almost exactly the same profile as our structural heart patients. They tend to be elderly, they had comorbidities, they may have also had some kind of respiratory disorder, etc., and were moving slow. And so what happened is, COVID got prioritized, it was in the news every day, and it made those patients fearful to go into a system. But more importantly, when COVID hit in the beginning, and you remember how it hit, how hard it hit late March and early April, pretty much the health system stopped and emptied hospitals and said we need to be prepared for this wave of COVID patients. And so supposedly, we stopped elective procedures, but in reality, all procedures stopped, even the most critical ones. And although, we saw volumes drop pretty dramatically. Following that time, there was some pretty incredible adaptation on the part of health systems who said, you know what, we need to be able to treat all our patients like structural heart patients and COVID patients. And they started quickly adapting. And so we saw things come back and things definitely improved for our patient group over the year, but if I think about it in reflection, I think we’re gonna see a lot more research that comes out, Gary, that says, there’s a number of these cardiovascular patients who did not survive 2020 and those that did survive are in tougher shape, there are more emergency procedures, they are more risky procedures. It was a tough time for patients.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 22:25
Yeah, for sure. I mean, has it picked up? Is it back to normal levels or not?
Mike Mussallem 22:30
Yeah, so what we saw was this big dip in March/April, and things starting to recover. And Q3 was better than Q2, and Q4 was better than Q3. But toward the end of Q4, as this latest wave has moved through, we really felt it again. In a different way, it wasn’t as if the whole system shut down. It was more driven by, I think, some hospitals simply got overwhelmed, said we need to stop our ICUs are full. We predicted some of it, we knew it was going to be tough. We call it a tough winter, probably turned out to be a little tougher than we even imagined. It’s a pretty dark time. I like to think it’s getting better now and we’re very optimistic that it is going to get much better as we proceed through 2021, but still tough. Still suboptimal. Patients not even coming in to get worked up at this point. So it’s kept patients that really have some pretty severe conditions away.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 23:25
What about clinical trials, Mike. You must have some clinical trials underway. Were they impacted as well?
Mike Mussallem 23:31
They were impacted and that’s tough because we’re driven to continue to enroll trials because they’re so important collecting that evidence. And the clinical investigators are very driven as well, that there’s nothing that they want more than to be able to be part of that success. But no, things just slow down because there were other priorities within the health system that just slowed down being able to administer clinical trials. So I would say, depending on the field, maybe lost two quarters, could be more or less depending on how things go in this period that we’re living on right now. But the good news coming out the other side, everybody’s motivated to get that going again, so I don’t think it’s going to be persistent.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 24:11
Two quarters when you’re in it must have seemed like two generations, Mike. That was a tough one. What about supply chain? Did you have any difficulties with supply chain?
Mike Mussallem 24:21
I’ll tell you what. I am so proud of our supply chain. They had incredible difficulties. This idea that, in our case, 8,000 people in different facilities around the world trying to come in when you’re making heart valves or all the other things we’re doing, that’s hands-on. You can’t go to remote work. And so we needed to figure that out. And as we talked about, our clean rooms are wonderful. They’re clean and air changes and people are gowned and masked, but you still have all the challenges associated with getting people to and from work and having meals together. So it was big challenges. And then we have places like Singapore where we have a very large facility, half of our employees live in Malaysia, which is a very close trip, but the border between Singapore and Malaysia was closed because of COVID. And so we needed to find a way for our Malaysian employees to continue to live in Singapore so that they didn’t have to go home. And so we created living accommodations for almost a thousand Malaysians. We have special tissue, for example, that only comes from Australia, because Australia beef eats grass and they end up with a different thickness of pericardium. All flights out of Australia stopped, and so supply chains get disrupted. So we needed to go to the highest level of government to try and get some policy exceptions. Those kinds of things felt like they were happening on a daily and weekly basis. But the team just hung in there and they were incredible. So we had some of our best supply and quality ever in 2020.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 25:52
Mike, why don’t we go from COVID, which has been a sorry story for a lot of people, but as you pointed out, there’s also a lot of people that distinguish themselves during that time. But thinking about leadership, Mike, what do you enjoy the most about leadership?
Mike Mussallem 26:08
I like to think I’m still improving and I’m growing as a leader. At one time, I used to think that leadership was a little bit more hands on, meaning if you grip the steering wheel a little tighter, maybe you could do even a better job. And I’ve begun to learn over time that if you can surround yourself with really great leaders and create an environment and give them the tools to do great things, and you turn them loose, that I find myself getting surprised on the upside more than the downside with just getting a chance to watch people do incredible things, watch teams do incredible things. And that’s so gratifying and so satisfying to be part of that.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 26:45
Here’s a question that, as I talk to you CEOs I wonder about, and that is, do you see that COVID has changed you as leaders? And do you see that the next generation CEOs will need to be different than your generation?
Mike Mussallem 27:04
It’s a good question. COVID is humbling for a leader. People want their leaders to have vision and know where you’re going and all that. And then you end up in this uncertain set of circumstances where you don’t have much control. And people are looking to you for truth and answers and maybe a little bit of vision into the future. And that is extraordinarily challenging. And so to continue to talk to people, being honest about it, about what you know, and what you don’t know, being willing to change your mind and say, boy, we just learned new things this week, or today, or this month and we’re going to change direction again. Being that adaptable and resilient and vulnerable, frankly, was key to success in trying to work through this and maintain trust with your team because at least you’re speaking the truth, even if you didn’t have all the answers. And so I think what it reminds you of is that the world looks at the CEOs of the future operated, probably even more uncertain than the past. You just have to prepare that you’re going to be surprised when you wake up tomorrow morning and something’s going to happen that you had no idea. So this idea of being very adaptable and very flexible in terms of what you’re able to accomplish. And so keeping your core principles and your passion, your own culture is so important. But the rest of it needs to stay far more agile.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 28:38
You’ve really addressed the point, but let me ask it directly because I believe it bears some repeating. And that is, what do you see as the key characteristics of a leader during a crisis?
Mike Mussallem 28:52
Just finding your voice is so important. People want to turn to their leaders and have somebody there that’s trustworthy and will be a source of truth. And having the courage to stand up and deliver that is so important, even when you know that you may not have all the answers but simply being a good listener, I’ve found it so important to be empathetic during this time. Whenever you start thinking about all the things that are important to Edwards and maybe you forget about the fact that what the heck is a parent going to do that all of a sudden that’s got two or three at home that they’ve got to take care of and they were working parents, you’ve got to get real practical solutions like okay, how can we run a business, but still be flexible for all of our people so that they can live a reasonable life. And this is a challenge, I think, for all of us as leaders,
Dr. Gary Bisbee 29:44
Mike, this has been a terrific interview. Thank you so much. Final question, do you think the COVID crisis has changed you at all as a leader and a family member?
Mike Mussallem 29:56
It’s interesting that you add family member, because, yeah, I do think it’s changed me. It’s caused me to be more reflective of what’s really important in our business and in my life. I mean, lots of traditions that we do every year were broken in 2020. And you reflect on that, and you say, “Wow, you know, that one leaves a hole” or “No, that really wasn’t so important.” So you, I think, become a more serious judge of priorities because of COVID and the uncertainties and the challenges that are associated with it. And, and I know that, for example, you know, I prioritize a number of the family things that are so important to me and because we have a close family even higher, because that’s so precious, and it’s so easy for those to go away. And it also just reminded me the importance inside a company of culture. If you’ve got the right culture, and our people are just passionate about patients, and they knew no matter what kind of chaos if they’re always doing the right thing for patients, that they were doing the right thing, it allowed everybody to be able to make decisions locally and make a difference. And so I was reminded of what’s really important.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 31:05
Mike, it’s always a pleasure to be with you. You’ve just been a terrific CEO role model at Edwards and keep up the great work.
Mike Mussallem 31:12
Well, thank you, Gary. It’s a pleasure. Really enjoyed spending time together.
Dr. Gary Bisbee 31:17
Fireside Chat with Gary Bisbee is a Health Management Academy podcast produced by Think Medium. Please subscribe to Fireside Chat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening right now. Be sure to rate and review Fireside Chat so we can continue to explore key issues with innovative and dynamic healthcare leaders. In addition to subscribing and rating, we’ve found that podcasts are known through word of mouth and we appreciate your spreading the word to friends or those who might be interested. Fireside Chat is brought to you from our nation’s capital in Washington, DC, where we explore the strategies of leading health systems through conversations with CEOs and other interesting leaders. For questions and suggestions about Fireside Chat contact me through our website firesidechatpodcast.com or firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks for listening.